I have gone to different blogs, some arguing against women preachers, some arguing for. Whatever the case, Christians, we must wake up and see that the bible is clear on this subject. Many years of arguing on this subject is not necessary due to the fact of many doing eisegesis to a text of scriptures. People use many types of scenarios and added things, which attempt to justify women pastors, bishops, apostles, prophetesses etc etc. I will state this, because it is not biblical:
-Because God called you to preach ladies, doesn’t justify you to as a pastor-teacher
-Because you prayed about ladies, doesn’t justify you to be a pastor-teacher
-Because you think Paul was writing based on the culture, doesn’t justify you as a pastor-teacher -Because you have teaching gifts (even better than the men), doesn’t justify you as a pastor-teacher.
Why Karsten? Why not! Does the bible say for a man to learn in silence? Does the scripture say that a bishop (pastor-teacher) is to be a wife of one husband? Has the scripture shown once God has ever called a woman to teach over men? If so, where? These questions are similar to asking a Preterist to indicate where the bible states that all the things in scripture have been fulfilled in 70 AD. You will not find it. The case for their arguments are on the scriptures that plainly which say what women cannot be. “Let’s argue these scriptures, (really eisegesis), to bring something to a text that is not so.”
We can look at the motivation for this. Why do women want to be pastor-teachers? Why do men and women argue this so much? Is it really that God has changed His mind? Why so much wrestling over this? Why is this a hot topic in this church generation, and not in generations before? Simple:
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:3-4).
As the days continue, soon they may be arguing that Jesus Christ was a woman and they can prove it. Or maybe that Christians can get sex changes according to God’s Word. Or better yet, God is gay in His nature, and approves of homosexuality. Anything to move away from the truth of God’s Holy Word, people will come with an argument, better yet an attack on the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Many men ignore truth, because they don’t like the real God! I have been accused by my close friend of worshipping the bible, and not the God of the bible. But what my friend doesn’t understand is: the only way I can know the Lord Jesus Christ of the bible and worship Him, is through the sound teaching of the Bible (which is the Holy Spirit leading me into all truth). There’s so many lies out here today , the bible is the only Truth that points to the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 3:16-17). Sorry, I cannot let down my guard because of something you may struggle with, or a theology you have disagreement with. You study an study to see if your belief is true.
I am placing Thomas Leake, the pastor-teacher of Hope Bible Church message up on this. Hopefully the scriptures expounded will equip you male or female Christians in righteousness. I pray that you are edified and grow up even more in His truth. I love you and thank you for coming to this blog. Now, Thomas Leake, a pastor-teacher of the Lord Jesus Christ
Karsten,
ReplyDeleteLet me first say that I come in peace brother. Next, I want to ask you a few questions. That I want you to answer as you say "expositionaly". I want you to show me the exegesis on your answers so we can have a real debate :o)
1. If you believe Timothy 2 to be a universal and transcedent principle, why do you not apply that same heremeutic to 1 Corinthians 11 and head coverings. Where do you find an escape clause in 1 Corinthians 11 that says women can now have uncovered heads?
2. Going with that. There are some imperatives in Timothy 2 that says "I want man to hold up holy hands in prayer" and "women CANT have their hair braided nor wear gold, pearls or costly attire". Are those imperatives universal and transcedent. Paul seems to take these as serious as he does women teaching.
3. Next we have this verse in 1 Corinthians 14:34. It says "Let your women keep silence (sigao) in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak (laleo). Looking at the tense of both of those verbs, I can come to no other conclusion that women are to be "completely silent" (which is the structure of this sentence) and are not allowed to even utter a sound. How do you deal with that? Is it also cultural and contextual?
If you say there are historical context that make those imperatives nontranscedent then why not 1 Timothy 2:11-12? I don't have a problem with you taking this position, the problem is that there is blatant inconsistencies, in which one exegesis is conditional upon contextual parameters but the other is a timeless imperative.
Next I always say, the most protected piece of furniture in the hold church has no biblical basis and it is called a pulpit. Can you show me one time in the bible where "pulpit ministry" is remotely spoken of?
Finally do you see these verses below as gender bias if so how?
"16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him."
It seems that Paul is calling the church when they gather to teach one another. If so are women not to admonish, sing hymns and teach? If you believe they are not how do you come to such a conclusion. Which verse has more weight? 1 Col 3:16 or 1 Timothy 2:12-13?
I answer you in peace my brother, not to debate, but I value your view of the scripture. I honestly feel you could probably shoot my argument down, best I will answer you my friend.
ReplyDelete1. After re-examining what I wrote and what you asked me, I see the statements I made that you are challenging. But do I now say women are to teach men in a public gathering of believers? Why does Paul not permit them to teach? Was that cultural? What then is the role of woman? Does the scripture say she can teach men? You bring Colossians 3:16, but what are we as Christian men & women said to teach one another - in all what? wisdom, singing songs and hymns. So what is Paul permitting women not to teach in 1 Timothy 2:13? The Doctrine of the Apostles? Is that because the Apostle were chosen men by Jesus Christ (a man in the flesh)? Where are the women that he chose? Where do we see in scripture women being chosen by God to teach men the commandments of God, His doctrine, His statutes? I am not speaking of a prophetess giving a Word from the Lord. I am saying where in scripture is a woman, or even a wife, given God's commands, and teachs them to a man? Now could it be that this role was given to men? Why? Why since the women as Christians can teach men wisdom,sing songs and hymns, why does scripture mention them not teaching men?
I see in the context of Chapter 2that Paul explains he being chosen by God in 1 Timothy 2:7. So why is Paul not permitting the women to teach? Is it they cannot teach men God's commandments due to the fact he mentions the Genesis account in verse 13? Is the Genesis account to be applied universal? Wait a minute, women a permitted to teach children,Timothy was taught as a child? Yes, but why not men?
Lionel I am raising these questions to show you how I try not to come to the scripture with my own thinking. I think some women are truly gifted to teach men, but does scripture truly command this? I feel I have not answered your questions properly but I hope what I did pose will generate a good response to me. Maybe there's something I am not seeing. I appreciate you insight please. Thanks for hearing me out?
Karsten Miller
Karsten,
ReplyDeleteWhats the difference from the word teaching in Col 3 and 1 Timothy 2? If Paul says "not to teach" why does he then give them an imperative to teach each other in Colossians.
But let me answer your questions in the order you present them.
1. I provided you the verses in Colossians 3. Let me pose a question. Does prophecy contain teaching? If so women can prophecy, if not what is prophecy?
2. Yes actually I do believe it to be cultural. Read Gordan Fee's response to Grudem. We must not write off arguements because we don't like the arguement, but we must examine in light of the evidence provided. Jon Zens also provides a nice discussion over at www.searchingtogheter.org
3. Yes actually we are all priests thus we can all teach. The burden of proof rests with those who have one verse to build an entire doctrine on.
4. What does wisdom contain? Hymns were a huge way to teach read Philippians 2 which is a hymn.
5. Let me ask, can a gentile be a teacher? Jesus also only chose Jews to be Apostles, so was Jesus also showing that Jews were the only one really qualified to lead God's people? If not why do you bring up the sex and not the ethnicity?
6. Let me ask you a question. When you read Acts 16 who was the first convert in Philippi? And when you read the letter of Philippians whose house did the church meet in? Who do you think taught whom? The Philippian Jailer who didn't know God or Lydia who was a covert to Judaism?
7. Actually lets really see why Paul mentions the Genesis account. Lets start by asking what was the great attraction in Ephesus? Next what did that great attraction represent? Who was the high priest in that temple and what were women views of creation according to Diana? Answer those questions for me and then lets discuss why Paul must ground men being created first by using the Genesis account.
8. Let me ask you. At what age should a woman stop teaching a male? Since this is a direct universal, transcedent commandment we must have an age where the cut off stands? Where does Paul or any of the New Testament writers provide this cut off? We don't want our women or churches being disobedient so what age would you choose. If you are wrong you will have a woman and a church in sin correct?
I ask these questions seriously brother. I know we love and respect our teachers, the problem rests in the fact that all who preach this doctrine are the first to say "a scripture must have a witness" and this scripture has none. If this is such a serious issue, why does no other church get to hear it.
I also you need you to answer the questions from the previous comment. If we are going to tell women they are sinning and tell churches they are disobeying God, then we must be clear on all of those questions and set clear standards, the problem there is blaring inconsistencies, such as women sharing and teaching in small groups, women missionaries who are teaching men all over the world and women teaching young men/children at different ages.
I want to thank Lionel for his comments. We had a great discussion over e-mail. I presented what i could, he presented where he stands. I left this humbled and enlighted even though we have different views. The people of Jesus Christ are awesome. Now, can any of you answer Lionel's questions?
ReplyDeleteKarsten Miller
Ok. After reading all the previous comments I have one question. Is the post just focused on preaching and teaching or also on the leader of the family unit (father, mother, children)?
ReplyDeleteMikal
ReplyDeleteOriginally, it was supposed to be about women pastors and teaching men. We went into different things ask you can see.
Karsten Miller